Sandy
18 April 2009, 09:49PM

James, Palestine the name of a Mandate given to Britain after WW1 TO CREATE A HOMELAND FOR THE JEWISH PEOPLE.
The area of that Mandate covered what is now Gaza, Israel, the West bank AND Jordan. In 1921, Churchill did a deal with the Hasemites, and GAVE about 80% of the mandated territory to them (“Transjordan” ...now “Jordan). The remaining territory has been the subject of multiple proposals of further partitioning into a Jewish and Arab state, that have been consistently accepted by the Zionists, and have been VIOLENTLY rejected by the Arabs. The Arabs prefer to keep the Palestinian Arabs as permanent “refugees” and cannon fodder in their campaign for a Jew-free Middle East. They have expelled the 850,000 Jews from the Arab nations surrounding Israel, and also want to destroy Israel. When they stop trying to do that, they will find Israel a very willing partner in peaceful reconciliation.

James Fehon
18 April 2009, 09:41PM

Some broad prescriptions there.  Don’t most people have as their basic desire to be able to live peacefully?

This whole issue can’t be captured in a single inquiry but the conduct and allegations arising from the recent conflict must be investigated.  The issue is a lot larger than this period but both parties must uphold the international law obligations in any ‘engagement’.  AI has clearly indicated the inquiry must look at the actions of both parties. 

There’s 80 years of conflict by your assessment – how is anything going to improve if no-one holds those involved to account.

Sandy
18 April 2009, 09:33PM

James, Palestine is most certainly NOT a state. It COULD have been one, if the Arabs had not violently rejected the partition proposal of the Peel Commission Report in 1934 and the UN partition resolution of 1947, and every proposal for co-existence since then. There has never been a “Palestinian” sovereign entity. That’s not to say that the Arabs of that region aren;t entitled to self determination, if they wish. In which case, why didn’t they ask Jordan and Egypt to end their “occupation” of the West bank and gaza between 1948 and 1967, when those nations controlled that territory?

The problem is that the Arabs don’t want a 23rd Arab state. What they really want is to destroy the only Jewish state. That’s the only logical explanation for their violent rejection of Jews in their region since the Jaffa riots of 1921 ...long before Israel even existed.
what’s needed is for the Arabs to say it ...that they accept the existence of a Jewish state FULL STOP.

James Fehon
18 April 2009, 09:21PM

Sandy, both Ben & David refer to Hamas as the elected government, my comments are highlighting the division amongst those attempting to justify Israel’s action.  You quite clearly think Palestine is not a state, so what is it? Are you suggesting it’s Israeli territory?

The problem remains, an inquiry into allegations of gross abuses in the recent “Operation Cast Lead” is needed.  Israel as a civil society, and state party to the various regimes covering the use of force has an obligation to uphold these.  Hamas’ actions cannot go without reprimand either.  If Palestine cannot be treated as a state however, how do we reach resolution of this decades old conflict?

Sandy
18 April 2009, 09:10PM

James, Gaza is most certainly not a “state” and neither is the ruling Hamas regime “democratically elected”. It WAS democratically elected in 2006, then in 2007 it took control of Gaza by brutal force, including the torture and murder of its opponents, a “policy” which continues to this day.

Hamas has the same legitimacy as Hitker, who was also, initially, democratically elected. Also like Hitler, it seeks genocide of the Jewish people.

None of these obvious facts require any “inquiry”...they’re plainly obvious.

...and yet AI only pipes up when Israel finally stands up to defend itself ...and as Ben pointed out, the focus happens to be just the 20-odd days of Israel’s incursion, not the 8 years of terrorism, nor the published genocidal charter of the terrorists ...how pathetic.

James Fehon
18 April 2009, 06:23PM

Looking at your responses again Ben I think there’s confusion as to my bias and that in the article.  (Bias here referring to putting a certain view)

The article refers to Palestinian attacks in the same period (this period being relevant because it’s what the inquiry will be focussed on) from my reading of the article, it takes measure to ensure it’s clear that AI is including acts committed by Hamas in the scope of this report.

As for my comments you’ve linked words I’ve used with those of the article to piece together an attack on my credibility.  I certainly am not seeing these events in isolation, was asking for a response to why it is many people think of Gaza as occupied and in no way attempts to demonise.

What I will do is call for accountability in line with the international humanitarian and human rights regimes.  Israel is a civil society, it will be more responsive to these calls. Is Palestine a state, you say yourself it’s government is democratically elected?

James Fehon
18 April 2009, 06:08PM

Ben, those certainly aren’t my words.  I haven’t referred to any limited period. Also reference to the common reference as “world’s largest prison” was stated as an open question.  Please don’t taint my comments with a bias you’ve no proof of. 

I also mentioned that Hamas has been committing grave human rights abuses of there own.  Please retract the comment or explain what you’re basing it on.  As far as I can see you’ve fabricated this “two-fold” attack.  I believe in Israel’s right to exist peacefully and free from fear of violence, I do want an inquiry and debate as to whether it’s outcome will be fair is really pointless speculative until that point.  An inquiry IS needed, why don’t you write to ensure it’s terms are fair too instead of throw baseless accusations around?

Ben Pik
18 April 2009, 11:46AM

James, the one sided bias is the problem. Your arguments are 2 Fold, firstly you isolate the war: “In the same period Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups launched a barrage”. Secondly you refer to GAZA as the worlds largest prison. The Elected Palestinian government HAMAS as has been allowing / encouraging firing rockets at Israeli citizens every since Israel pulled out of GAZA - why did you not mention this fact? By calling Gaza a prison you are SAYING it’s Israel to blame. Your Bias and seemingly short term historical outlook distorts and misinforms people who use TV News and sensationalism as their main source of education about the conflict, and is very clever in demonising Israel.

James Fehon
17 April 2009, 10:32PM

David, I think we’re demonstrating the wider debate as to whether Palestine is occupied territory, of which I’m sure you’re aware.  Yes Hamas were elected and yes they have committed grave abuses of their own – even this article above recognises that fact.
However you’ve both referred to Hamas as a criminal non-state actor (also reflected in Israel’s position towards cooperation with their government) and a legitimate, democratically elected party.  Which one is it?  And why the double standard – if Palestine is a legitimate state there’s no reason to deny them legitimate materials such as concrete, and mattresses!
How does that increase security for Israelis, if anything it increases resentments towards them.

GrahamW
17 April 2009, 10:21PM

So many innocent people have died: children, women and men in Gaza. The whole of the Gaza population continues to be blockaded under brutal siege of some years standing preventing the passage of all sorts of simple essentials to normal life.  This fact-finding mission with the conditions under which it is to operate must be supported by all sides. This is the PEACEFUL road towards an end to the current situation and as such desperately needs all our backing.  Hard-line propaganda has never led to peace and harmony for either side in conflicting, complex matters such as this.

David Schildkraut
17 April 2009, 04:29PM

James,
Firstly Gaza is not occupied. Israel left there years ago. When Israel vacated Gaza the people there had the chance to build a civil society but this is not what they want. Israel’s destruction is what motivates them and their actions since Israel left are consistent with this aim clearly enunciated in the Hamas Charter. The innocent civilians you refer to are the ones who elected Hamas to govern them fully aware of what they stood for. That is their democratic right but Israel is not obliged to sit by whilst its population is subject to daily bombardment from what is nothing more than an islamist terror enclave and haven. It is this violence emanating from there that elicits Israel’s military response and necessitates strict border control both by Israel and Egypt.

James Fehon
17 April 2009, 03:53PM

David, I’m sure many of those subject to the harsh conditions imposed upon the occupied territory would really take issue with your implying harsh sanctions, and restrictions on travel aren’t in anyway needing to be considered when we talk about the cycle of violence.  Gaza is often referred to as the world’s largest prison, why do you think this is?  And why do the innocent civilians there subjected to this treatment.

I hope both parties co-operate with the inquiry, in the interests of a lasting peaceful resolution.

David Schildkraut
17 April 2009, 03:23PM

It is not possible to have an impartial enquiry that simply looks at the period 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009 and talks of cycles of violence. Ignoring the provocations over the years following Israel’s complete withdrawal from Gaza leading up to Operation Cast Lead compromises the enquiry already. What’s more AI can expect no co-operation from Hamas, a criminal non-state actor with no obligations to anyone and whose every shot is indiscriminately fired in the hope of killing, maiming and terrorising as many civilians as possible. The terms of the enquiry put both parties on an equivalent standing and that is simply ridiculous. There is no cycle of violence. As soon as Hamas stops shooting at Israel the necessary forceful response from Israel will end.

Jacob Parsons
17 April 2009, 11:46AM

i agree with Barry, we cannot overlook the acts that the Palestinians did prior to all of this. i know what Israel is terrible but i believe it is just them reacting to how they were treated, albeit overreacting. to not mention this in the article implies that Palestine is the victim hear, but without knowing all the facts we can not make such implications.

Barry Atkins
16 April 2009, 12:06AM

Why didn’t Amnesty International condemn the incessant Palestinian atrocities that led up to operation Cast Lead? Why is it only interested once Israel took action to stop the attacks the rest of the world ignored? How many times and how many ways must Israel plead for peace with its neighbours to be heard? Why didn’t the other Arab nations condemn Israel for protecting itself? Because they know if Hamas and Hezbollah, as Iranian proxies, succeed in their proclaimed aim of wiping Israel and all Jews off the map then they, being equivalent to infidels, are next in line! War leads to casualties but do you really expect Jews to once again kowtow to its enemies and allow themselves to be annihilated as has happened so often in the past?

Ben Pik
16 April 2009, 12:01AM

When HAMAS terrorises hundreds of thousands of Israeli people, traumitizes children.. Where was Amnesty International calling for justice and WAR CRIMES trials for the HAMAS militants and the terror groups that operate freely in GAZA.

Amnesty International is a joke, and its anti Israel stand is blatantly clear.

They may have once had a vision, but that vision has become selective… and it is now simply a forum for Israel Bashing.

If groups like Amnesty International would have made the same noise about WAR CRIMES when Hizballah fired 1000,s of rockets into Israel’s north, and supported WAR CRIME TRIALS for those responsible.
As well as supported WAR CRIME TRIALS for the Palestinian terror groups that operate freely to fire rockets from GAZA.
Maybe Israel would not have had to invade GAZA to try and stop the incessant Rocket Fire, and protect her citizens.

Ben Pik
16 April 2009, 12:00AM

At what point does sanity prevail?
War Crimes by Israel in Gaza…?
1 Rocket, Missile or Projectile that is expressly sent with the intention of killing a baby, a child, a man, a woman, a grand parent, is a MURDEROUS CRIME!!!.

1 Rocket, Missile or Projectile that is expressly sent with the intention of blowing up a School, A Building, a Hospital, a persons home is a MURDEROUS CRIME!!!.

When HAMAS the ELECTED government of the Palestinians in Gaza encourages, condones, assists and/or arranges the firing of a single rocket - Thats a MURDEROUS CRIME.

However, we are not talking about a single rocket we are talking about HUNDREDS OF ROCKETS fire INDISCRIMINATELY with intention to Kill Israeli Children, and Adults… what is that???

IS IT NOT THE CRIME OF THE CENTURY?

Nina Shar
15 April 2009, 02:07PM

Where does Amnesty International get it’s figures from?  The 1400 dead is disputed and many of the so called children in the list of 300 names are adult militants or still alive and well.  Why is AI harping on about the UN building when it has been established that the lie of the UN school being targeted was another falsehood being spread by hamas and it’s supporters.  I would like to see AI provide some impartial commentary.  Hamas have fired 10,000 rockets and mortars into civilian areas in Israel.  This did not start with operation cast lead.  This caused it. Your ‘background’ section is misleading in this respect.  Ever since total removal of every Jew in Gaza, hamas has been terrorising Israeli population in nearby towns causing death, injury and many children suffer from stress disorders.  Little children, terrified parents.  Where were Amnesty when this was happening?

James Fehon
13 April 2009, 10:37PM

This statement clearly and unequivocally calls on co-operation by both parties in this inquiry.  It refers to claims that both Israeli forces and Palestinian armed groups committed serious violations of international law, including possible war crimes.

Steve, Sandy & Barry, you ignore the content of the entry and criticise a much needed inquiry into alleged atrocities committed by both sides.  Israel is not immune from its actions being reviewed, nor is Palestine.  No one here is claiming vindication of the actions of Hamas, yet you imply Israel is justified.

This isn’t about justifying alleged atrocities.  Amnesty International wil always passionately present a case protecting human rights of all those involved.

Barry Walters
13 April 2009, 05:42PM

AI is irrelevant now in these considerations. It has displayed bias that excludes it from the role of Judge. The number of 1400 is spurious and has never been substantiated. The vast majority are young men, far in excess of the number predicted by their prevalence in the population. They were combatants. Most of the civilian deaths resulted from hamas placing people in harm’s way. Israel warned residents in areas under attack and gave them time to escape - they were prevented from doing so by hamas.
You, Amnesty International, you and others smooth the pathway for hamas and the forces of evil by refusing to make them accountable. You help them in their barbaric cruelty inflicted on their own people by ignoring the evidence of their criminality. I look forward to a dispassionate and objective review of the facts by AI and not a passive acceptance of the statistics put forward by hamas. Unfortunately I doubt my hopes will be realised, but I would love to be surprised.