Michael Wild
15 November 2009, 09:57PM

Hi all

I support what AIA is trying to do over our asylum seekers but we also need to be aware of how big a mountain we have to climb.  Newpoll’s work on marginal seats (for the politically niave marginal=the ones that really matter) and found something like 56% said Rudd was being too soft (38% way too soft) against 12% thinking he was too hard.  Very sobering statistics I would say. It’s pleasing to see we are putting ads into the big papers.  For too long AIA seems to be talking to itself, Indigenous people, other NGOs and a few pollies and NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH to the general public.

Rich Rivera
14 November 2009, 05:08PM

Wyatt - it depends on how you define a lesser person? Lesser in skills, behaviour, attitude, how civilized you are? Definitely. All people are born equally, they are however defined by what they do during their life.

Rich Rivera
14 November 2009, 04:57PM

Wyatt - ok, here’s the evidence - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/police-say-sudanese-a-gang-threat/story-e6frg6nf-1111112783935

I think you turn a blind eye to anything negative Wyatt. You don’t want to believe it’s true.

Andrew J S
14 November 2009, 12:59PM

Wyatt,you seem to misunderstand my point - If you can at least accept that our resources are finite and that careful planning is required to maintain our standard of living etc. you would understand that a controlled immigration programme is essential. It really doesn’t matter if population growth is in the form of birth rate, skilled migration or asylum seekers - if asylum seekers increase, other forms of migration must reduce to compensate to keep the total increase constant. When a group of asylum seekers commits piracy and demands their way to Australia, they are disadvantaging other asylum seekers as Australia will take less from elsewhere - if we allow more asylum seekers in total in - less skilled and other migration will be necessary to compensate for the increase in asylum seekers. Personally, i believe we have the balance right, and i would hate to see those who commit piracy to be advantaged over others more deserving.

Wyatt Moss-Wellington
14 November 2009, 11:50AM

The only reason we could not allow these people aspirations to a comparatively safe and prosperous country such as Australia, is if we believed they were somehow lesser people than ourselves. Please provide evidence for these claims: “It is highly probable though that many are guilty of awful war crimes themselves”, “if you look at the bigger picture you will find that the majority are not contributing.” (If you watched the Media Watch segment, you would know that Centrelink has denied all of those statistics, they are false.) Please also provide evidence that refugees in Flemington or elsewhere, commit insubordinate amounts of violent crime.

Wyatt Moss-Wellington
14 November 2009, 11:48AM

First of all, the population of Australia is estimated to be 22 million at 2009. Last year, we took in 13, 500 asylum seekers (way behind global average according to the UN High Commission for Refugees, UNHCR). Of those, 206 came by boat. Even if we did consider Australia overpopulated, we can hardly blame these people for it.
  But Australia isn’t, and the politicians know it – that’s why they are asking us to make more children. The Department for Immigration and Citizenship states that immigration currently
provides 60% of our population growth, but within the next few years it will be the only
source of net labour force growth in Australia. http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/15population.htm.

Rich Rivera
13 November 2009, 06:24PM

Laura - it seems our experiences with refugees are completely different. I realize some Australian born citizens don’t contribute but the unemployment rate is around 5-6% and that would indicate most do contribute. Importing people from certain areas of the world, of which the majority do not contribute when they get here or have hatred towards our society does not make any sense. As i said to Wyatt earlier, i know that some refugees are of value to society and your fellow student appears to be an example of that. However, current statistics say refugee success stories are in the minority. One only needs to go into the Flemington area of Melbourne to see the bad side of refugee immigrants. You cannot do a proper security/background check on people from third world countries. I’ve always believed it is better to assist these people in their own countries. Lets face it, Western countries accepting some as refugees is never going to cure the real issue is it.

Rich Rivera
13 November 2009, 05:56PM

Wyatt - The welfare cost is still true as proven by the statistics from Centrelink. While it doesn’t entirely relate to those who arrive in boats, it is representative of the entire refugee program of which those coming here in boats are being accepted under. So, of the 13,500 granted refugee status, 75% of them are receiving a Centrelink benefit. The media watch presenter would dispute the figures because he is paid to pick up on anomalies in the media, even as small as this one is. Your ABC Science link refers to one refugee. I never implied that they all don’t contribute. I know some do and the guy in that link is true of that, but if you look at the bigger picture you will find that the majority are not contributing. The average time it takes a refugee to pay back their cost is 17 years. The European people from the 50’s and 60’s who had skills would bring this average down considerably whereas third world refugees are more likely to take far longer to pay it back, if ever.

Andrew J S
13 November 2009, 05:54PM

Wyatt,
A country that has such severe soil salinity problems and a dire lack of fresh water could hardly be termed as under populated - do you seriously propose to send asylum seekers to our vast areas of dessert?

Andrew J S
13 November 2009, 05:49PM

Hi Wyatt
It is open to debate the level of threat that the current Asylum seekers would pose to Australian society - It is highly probable though that many are guilty of awful war crimes themselves and many would have a grudge against other sri lankans in Australian society, you need to assess risk and identify the asylum seekers before the level of risk can be determined. Remeber there is a convicted criminal deported from Canada now wishing to claim Asylum here amongst the sri lankans - i certainly hope he doesn’t get his way. Everybody whether they are for or against asylum seekers wants a better, faster and more cost effective solution but flying everyone who wants to come here and claim asylum to mainland cities cannot be the answer. It really is a matter of whether we want to control and have orderly immigration and borders or not - what is the alternative?

Wyatt Moss-Wellington
13 November 2009, 04:39PM

Here is a good discussion on the environment and overpopulation from a “green” publication: http://www.greenleft.org.au/1992/72/2439. The fact is, Australia is underpopulated while much of the rest of the world is struggling with larger populations, and our government is encouraging us to make more babies to fill the void. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Australia#Economy
  Here also is my own story regarding the current asylum seeker debate: http://wyattmosswellington.com/news.html#20

Wyatt Moss-Wellington
13 November 2009, 04:37PM

Rich,
  Please have a look at this Media Watch episode: http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s2724620.htm. You have been lied to about the cost of asylum seekers, and it is sad that our media law permits this story to remain online.
  When you refer to “the type of people” who generate a positive economic effect, are you suggesting that those arriving as refugees are less likely to work hard and generate wealth? Because this doesn’t hold true either. The evidence points to the contrary, that they turn out to be valued workers (eg http://www.abcscience.net.au/news/stories/2004/02/04/1037954.htm) and contribute to our economic prosperity, just as the Vietnamese refugees a few decades prior have done.

Wyatt Moss-Wellington
13 November 2009, 04:35PM

To suggest that the alternative to our current arrangement is an open border policy misrepresents all other possibilities. I don’t know anyone who is advocating that asylum seekers should not be processed or security checked, just that it could happen in more humane – and less expensive –  conditions than those in Indonesia or on Christmas Island: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/rudds-policy-belies-the-brutal-honesty-of-christmas-islands-names-20091027-hiyo.html.
  People subjected to violent, dangerous or poverty-stricken conditions will almost invariably try to escape them. Thus people might want to leave Sri Lanka, and thus they do not want to be incarcerated. I don’t know how we can begrudge them that. I guess the only way we can have empathy is to ask if we would happily be subjected to that which we are asking them to endure.

Wyatt Moss-Wellington
13 November 2009, 04:34PM

Hi Andrew,

First of all, the danger of asylum seekers posing any kind of national threat is “infinitesimally small”: http://www.smh.com.au/national/rudd-slams-tuckeys-terrorist-asylum-seeker-comments-20091022-hamt.html.

Laura
13 November 2009, 04:16PM

Rich,
I have never met any Sudanese muggers and am unclear as to how this relates to the discussion. My experience with refugees is that of a fellow student who comes from a persecuted ethnic minority group in Afghanistan. He came here with his family at the beginning of Year 11, learned English and managed to complete the HSC as dux of his school. He is now attending one of Australia’s top universities, based on the merit of his results. He studies harder than most students I know (demonstrating a true appreciation for the opportunities he has), while working part time to help support himself and his family. There are many Australian-born citizens who contribute a lot less and drain the system a lot more. Does it therefore logically follow that we should hold a referendum and have them kicked out?
Also, just for the record, under Australian law, generally referenda are only held in regards to issues pertaining to Federal (and sometimes State) Constitutional amendment.

Rich Rivera
13 November 2009, 03:03PM

Laura - no I have not many any refugee families. Have you met any Sundanese people in the street who are desperate to steal from you and are prepared to use various stabbing weapons in order to achieve that?

Andrew J S
13 November 2009, 12:35PM

Alex, Christmas island is where the majority of services for boat people is, it is also the part of Australia they so desparately try to reach by boat- so putting them there is hardly unfair. Do people overstaying their visas get flown to an Australian destination of choice? of course not. Plane arrivals at least have had some form of security checks before they come on to the mainland - its not fair to advantage boat arrivals by waiving this requirement. No papers, false names and no documentation should automatically require detention until confirmation you are not a threat. otherwise what you propose is a borderless world where people can choose to move freely wherever and whenever they like. And should you be claiming asylum, your proposition is you be given a free of charge flight wherever you like whilst your claim is processed. Tax payers pay taxes for border security, not for giving free flights to prospective immigrants.

Alex Pags
13 November 2009, 11:49AM

Andrew, most people who seek asylum by plane come here on a temporary visa (tourist, student etc) and then apply for protection before their visa runs out. Then, they are given bridging visas and allowed to live in the Australian community while waiting for their application to be processed.

This is significantly different to the way we treat asylum seekers who arrive by boat. They are placed on Christmas Island, 2600km away from Perth. They receive less access to services, fewer legal rights and most asylum seekers (including children) have be placed in detention because there is hardly any community on the island for them to live amongst.

It really isn’t fair, especially when a much higher percentage of asylum seekers who arrive by boat end up being genuine refugees (90%), than those who arrive by plane (40%).

Laura
12 November 2009, 09:56PM

Rich, just wondering… do you know any refugee families personally?

Andrew J S
12 November 2009, 06:25PM

Mohammad - How does Australia treat those who apply for asylum arriving by plane? arn’t they transported back to the nearest centre to await claim processing? how does this differ to boat arrivals given Christmas Island would be the nearest and best resourced location for them?